I love the EP....but...

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EricH
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I love the EP....but...

Post by EricH » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:20 am

The music is beautiful. The lyrics are beautiful. Grace's voice is beautiful. I could listen to this EP on repeat for hours.... but
Except for the intro they are all relationship songs. JTB had more varied subject matter and on some of those songs, more depth. Grace herself complained at one point that so many of the songs on the radio were relationship songs.
I hope this is an aberration. I agree with Grace's complaint. We have an overabundance of relationship songs already. We don't need more, no matter how good and unique they are. Better to have good, unique songs about other aspects of life. Why waste genius on well trampled ground?

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by JohnMay2 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:19 am

EricH wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:20 am
The music is beautiful. The lyrics are beautiful. Grace's voice is beautiful. I could listen to this EP on repeat for hours.... but
Except for the intro they are all relationship songs. JTB had more varied subject matter and on some of those songs, more depth. Grace herself complained at one point that so many of the songs on the radio were relationship songs.
I hope this is an aberration. I agree with Grace's complaint. We have an overabundance of relationship songs already. We don't need more, no matter how good and unique they are. Better to have good, unique songs about other aspects of life. Why waste genius on well trampled ground?
Well, she writes about what's happening in her life and her relationship with the dude was important to her, being her first one, so I don't know. I think maybe we should get permission from Mark before we proceed on this subject. Maybe it's possible to talk about it abstractly, just about the songs and their lyrics, the story it's telling, and what it might mean within the story in a critical manner, but we're walking a thin line, IMHO.

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VanderVault
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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by VanderVault » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:32 am

JohnMay2 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:19 am
EricH wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:20 am
The music is beautiful. The lyrics are beautiful. Grace's voice is beautiful. I could listen to this EP on repeat for hours.... but
Except for the intro they are all relationship songs. JTB had more varied subject matter and on some of those songs, more depth. Grace herself complained at one point that so many of the songs on the radio were relationship songs.
I hope this is an aberration. I agree with Grace's complaint. We have an overabundance of relationship songs already. We don't need more, no matter how good and unique they are. Better to have good, unique songs about other aspects of life. Why waste genius on well trampled ground?
Well, she writes about what's happening in her life and her relationship with the dude was important to her, being her first one, so I don't know. I think maybe we should get permission from Mark before we proceed on this subject. Maybe it's possible to talk about it abstractly, just about the songs and their lyrics, the story it's telling, and what it might mean within the story in a critical manner, but we're walking a thin line, IMHO.
In the abstract is okay. :thumbsup:

We have to remember that, like most songwriters penning tunes based on their personal lives, Grace probably incorporates quite a bit of poetic license and we shouldn't take everything in the songs literally, so there's no need to go into specifics.

Eric, maybe Volume 2 will deal with less personal, or at least personally romantic, songs. As you said, the intro hints that she has more to say in broader terms.

I give Grace credit, however, for writing relationship songs that cover different ground, and more creatively, than most. Nothing is straightforward, or binary, in her songs, and because of that I can fully enjoy the romantic bent of Volume 1. :thumbsup:

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by JohnMay2 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:44 am

VanderVault wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:32 am
JohnMay2 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:19 am
EricH wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:20 am
The music is beautiful. The lyrics are beautiful. Grace's voice is beautiful. I could listen to this EP on repeat for hours.... but
Except for the intro they are all relationship songs. JTB had more varied subject matter and on some of those songs, more depth. Grace herself complained at one point that so many of the songs on the radio were relationship songs.
I hope this is an aberration. I agree with Grace's complaint. We have an overabundance of relationship songs already. We don't need more, no matter how good and unique they are. Better to have good, unique songs about other aspects of life. Why waste genius on well trampled ground?
Well, she writes about what's happening in her life and her relationship with the dude was important to her, being her first one, so I don't know. I think maybe we should get permission from Mark before we proceed on this subject. Maybe it's possible to talk about it abstractly, just about the songs and their lyrics, the story it's telling, and what it might mean within the story in a critical manner, but we're walking a thin line, IMHO.
In the abstract is okay. :thumbsup:

We have to remember that, like most songwriters penning tunes based on their personal lives, Grace probably incorporates quite a bit of poetic license and we shouldn't take everything in the songs literally, so there's no need to go into specifics.

Eric, maybe Volume 2 will deal with less personal, or at least personally romantic, songs. As you said, the intro hints that she has more to say in broader terms.

I give Grace credit, however, for writing relationship songs that cover different ground, and more creatively, than most. Nothing is straightforward, or binary, in her songs, and because of that I can fully enjoy the romantic bent of Volume 1. :thumbsup:
That part is important. It's sometimes difficult to parse how much of what she is singing about is about herself and how much is storytelling. Just like actors, we shouldn't assume every bit of the story she's telling is her specifically.

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by sossoufr33 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:05 am

In the Zach Sang interview she complained about people expecting her to write only about love just because she was a girl, but she also added that were was nothing wrong with writing about it and that she had just done that a lot recently, BUT there's not only that subject.
I don't see why she should avoid the subject all together, especially if she needs to get something out of her chest by writing about it, that doesn't make her songs less good. And I think there's a lot of layers in her songs, it's not just a plain "oh I love you take me back my life's nothing without you come back"

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by JohnMay2 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:17 am

sossoufr33 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:05 am
In the Zach Sang interview she complained about people expecting her to write only about love just because she was a girl, but she also added that were was nothing wrong with writing about it and that she had just done that a lot recently, BUT there's not only that subject.
I don't see why she should avoid the subject all together, especially if she needs to get something out of her chest by writing about it, that doesn't make her songs less good. And I think there's a lot of layers in her songs, it's not just a plain "oh I love you take me back my life's nothing without you come back"
Good save 👍

And I agree.

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PratiMoksha
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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by PratiMoksha » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:22 am

Two relationship-related lines of the lyrics of Poser that I think might be more subtle than they appear at first glance. I may be over-analysing, but the wording caught my attention:
I wish I could fall into your love
I know plenty about 'falling in love', but I've never consider trying to fall into someone else's love (for me). I imagine that would take some serious relationship acrobatics to achieve.
I hope I don’t mess you up
I read this in two different ways:
1. "Mess someone up" = hurt that person
2. "Mess something up" = make a mess of something, ruin it. In other words, "you" could stand for their relationship, so "I hope I don't mess up this good thing we share"

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EricH
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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by EricH » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:44 am

VanderVault wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:32 am
JohnMay2 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:19 am
EricH wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:20 am
The music is beautiful. The lyrics are beautiful. Grace's voice is beautiful. I could listen to this EP on repeat for hours.... but
Well, she writes about what's happening in her life and her relationship with the dude was important to her, being her first one, so I don't know. I think maybe we should get permission from Mark before we proceed on this subject. Maybe it's possible to talk about it abstractly, just about the songs and their lyrics, the story it's telling, and what it might mean within the story in a critical manner, but we're walking a thin line, IMHO.
Eric, maybe Volume 2 will deal with less personal, or at least personally romantic, songs. As you said, the intro hints that she has more to say in broader terms.
I give Grace credit, however, for writing relationship songs that cover different ground, and more creatively, than most. Nothing is straightforward, or binary, in her songs, and because of that I can fully enjoy the romantic bent of Volume 1. :thumbsup:
Grace chose to make this EP have a relationship theme. And I love it. She didn't include "Stray" because that would have been off-topic. Grace, if she chose could have a very successful career with this type of thing. I just noticed that no one else commented about how this was a departure from earlier statements by Grace. Yes, she said she would have some relationship songs in the future and as a matter of fact she did have one or two in JTB. Though, clearly, that was before any personal experiences. And yes, these songs are coming at relationships from a unique direction. And yes, first experiences are powerful things. That is all true. I just thought someone should point out the obvious. That this is unlikely to be a direction that she continues on unless these songs go viral and success bumps Grace away from her better instincts, or causes her label to try and push her into that cubbyhole because it is profitable.

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by JohnMay2 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:47 am

PratiMoksha wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:22 am
Two relationship-related lines of the lyrics of Poser that I think might be more subtle than they appear at first glance. I may be over-analysing, but the wording caught my attention:
I wish I could fall into your love
I know plenty about 'falling in love', but I've never consider trying to fall into someone else's love (for me). I imagine that would take some serious relationship acrobatics to achieve.
I hope I don’t mess you up
I read this in two different ways:
1. "Mess someone up" = hurt that person
2. "Mess something up" = make a mess of something, ruin it. In other words, "you" could stand for their relationship, so "I hope I don't mess up this good thing we share"
Well, of course I would have been about to go to bed when I read this. Yeah, as always, Grace writes on multiple levels.

but this observation of yours actually gave me chills...

"I wish I could fall into your love"

There is so much about this that can be said. Like you, I hadn't considered that the character in the song would like to be able to fall into the love that is being expressed by the guy, but is either unwilling or unable to do so. It's actually a make or break moment in any relationship when you have to decide whether you are really in love with the other person. In WMT the female character is starting to realize that she isn't in love but she still wants to spend time with him. In Poser it feels like they both know it can't work.

It turns out we CAN talk about these songs without getting too personal. Damn, Grace knows how to write music.

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by VanderVault » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:21 am

JohnMay2 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:47 am
PratiMoksha wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:22 am
Two relationship-related lines of the lyrics of Poser that I think might be more subtle than they appear at first glance. I may be over-analysing, but the wording caught my attention:
I wish I could fall into your love
I know plenty about 'falling in love', but I've never consider trying to fall into someone else's love (for me). I imagine that would take some serious relationship acrobatics to achieve.
I hope I don’t mess you up
I read this in two different ways:
1. "Mess someone up" = hurt that person
2. "Mess something up" = make a mess of something, ruin it. In other words, "you" could stand for their relationship, so "I hope I don't mess up this good thing we share"

"I wish I could fall into your love"

There is so much about this that can be said. Like you, I hadn't considered that the character in the song would like to be able to fall into the love that is being expressed by the guy, but is either unwilling or unable to do so. It's actually a make or break moment in any relationship when you have to decide whether you are really in love with the other person. In WMT the female character is starting to realize that she isn't in love but she still wants to spend time with him. In Poser it feels like they both know it can't work.
My take on...
I wish I could fall into your love
...I wish I could fall into the love you are offering.

Huh?

Again, this is just my take, but as I interpret Grace in these "Letters" songs it sounds like it could be both a compliment and a passive-aggressive insult...

"I wish I could fall into the kind of shallow/flippant love you offer; it would make it a lot easier on my heart to care so little."

ALTERNATIVELY, it could also mean...

"I wish I could fall into the kind of deep/soulful/committed love you offer, but I'm not sure I can do that to myself, or you; the way things are going it would really just mess us up badly when this ends as I think we both know it will".

JohnMay2
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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by JohnMay2 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:14 pm

I can only speak for myself, obviously, but sometimes being in a relationship sucks. You are extremely vulnerable and sometimes you act in ways that you hate, but do them anyway. I see a streak of passive aggressiveness throughout these tracks. I see a tendency towards self deprecation, at best, and outright self loathing for pretending to be someone you aren't, at worst. "Love is so over-rated", in this context makes perfect sense. I became a little worried for the character in these songs because the carefree, time wasting, fun loving person from WMT became a jealous, passive aggressive, needy, overly attached girlfriend in subsequent songs. She is obviously pissed at him for going into the city with his friends (with no explanation given for why she didn't go with him), but checks her phone constantly to see if he has called. And the boy in the songs became more and more distant, detached, and manipulative. But even those qualities are seen through the eyes of uncertainty and almost paranoia about his true intentions, and her own flaws. It feels scary at times to read (or hear) the lyrics to these songs, because we really aren't sure about the narrator's ability to honestly interpret them correctly. Indeed, her almost willingness to accept or use her flaws as the reason behind her unhappiness is disturbing, to say the least. And it's made more so because as of yet there is no resolution. We are left hanging with an unhappy, self flagellating, uncertain situation, with no anchor.

Who is this person, really?

I really hope I don't mess you up
And you don't mess me up
And I don't mess you up
I hope I don't mess you up

I hope that last line in this storytelling refers to herself.

Perhaps Volume 2 will feature a resolution.

To be perfectly honest, now that I'm thinking about it, this EP feels like part 1 of her first concept album, in the vein of Pink Floyd's The Wall. There was a resolution of sorts with that, but Pink had to go through a great deal to get there.

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Michaelc
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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by Michaelc » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:40 pm

I would love to have Grace spend some time with Fiona Apple, her songwriting is legendary and very bluesy. Grace would greatly benefit from her and influence her in so many ways.

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by anthonminsky » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:44 pm

... nothing

Except...

... I wish it was a full album

... while some criticize it all being about relationships and she once said she doesn't like that there's too much music like that, I don't care if she contradicts herself if the music is still this good. :D

... on the live Vevo of 'Poser', I wish she didn't leave out the ending she has on the album. (but it was still really great)

... I wish 'The City' was longer. Like a couple minutes longer. Not just out of love for Grace do I say that, but I think there was a real potential for that in the song. When the multiple singing starts to happen with 'in the city' line, if feels like the song is ending and it feels early. But that's so picky, because I think it is a song that just floors me. Can't believe she wrote it. It sounds like an old time classic when you hear it for the first time.

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TomKauffman
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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by TomKauffman » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:26 pm

She said, on the Zach Sang show, that she scrapped a number of songs about "Love" and "Romance". Instead, she has given us a set of inter-related songs about relationships, with her characteristic multiple meanings embedded. She shows us, musically, what she can do by building a mental image and then thinking through various scenarios playing on our emotions. My feeling is that WMT may have been real-world and the rest of the set took the same starting point and applied different end results.

I'm really looking forward to Part 2, especially after reading this:
Reflecting on how she has developed over the last three years, VanderWaal continues: “I really can now see myself grow in the way of hearing melodically ‘what does anger sound like? What does sadness sound like? What does confusion sound like?’ I think those are really interesting things to experiment with, but I just really want to improve on that.”
from the TMRW article here: https://www.tmrwmagazine.com/features/m ... vanderwaal

I'm quite interested in what "confusion" ends up sounding like. 8-)

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by BradHaney » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:34 pm

sossoufr33 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:05 am
In the Zach Sang interview she complained about people expecting her to write only about love just because she was a girl, but she also added that were was nothing wrong with writing about it and that she had just done that a lot recently, BUT there's not only that subject.
Agree. I’m going to go with the Grace I’ve known so far and say her instincts will steer her away from a re-hash of the same thematic and musical vibe of LV1. Her intro is stuffed pretty full of sarcasm and an almost class-based disdain (she did get a good look at the Rockefeller clique last month). She also teases in her intro about “seeing what I see” and there’s a good chance she’s going to tell us what that is. She has to refer back to that, so something is coming. I see more of a possibility of Bjork-like experimentation, a real jazz song or a country-ish ballad thrown in for balance, or maybe even rock, goth, or Reyez-style techno. Who knows, but I highly doubt that “she did pretty much the same thing on LV2 as LV1” is what we’re going to be saying. Don’t sound like Grace to me…

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by EricH » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:52 pm

TomKauffman wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:26 pm
She said, on the Zach Sang show, that she scrapped a number of songs about "Love" and "Romance". Instead, she has given us a set of inter-related songs about relationships, with her characteristic multiple meanings embedded. She shows us, musically, what she can do by building a mental image and then thinking through various scenarios playing on our emotions. My feeling is that WMT may have been real-world and the rest of the set took the same starting point and applied different end results.

I'm really looking forward to Part 2, especially after reading this:
Reflecting on how she has developed over the last three years, VanderWaal continues: “I really can now see myself grow in the way of hearing melodically ‘what does anger sound like? What does sadness sound like? What does confusion sound like?’ I think those are really interesting things to experiment with, but I just really want to improve on that.”
from the TMRW article here: https://www.tmrwmagazine.com/features/m ... vanderwaal

I'm quite interested in what "confusion" ends up sounding like. 8-)
Below were my thoughts before reading the interview from TMRW

"While I love Grace’s music simply because it is always beautiful and imaginative, I am very much looking forward to the hurricane of change in the music industry that Grace is uniquely qualified to bring about. I am expecting that change in the next few years and would be horribly disappointed if Grace’s potential were sidetracked by success, in the box, so that she doesn’t explore outside the box that many in the industry would like to see maintained, because change threatens their control."

After reading that TMRW interview, my faith has been restored that Grace will not allow herself to be sidetracked from her destiny and stuffed inside some box.

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by aldri49501 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:29 am

BradHaney wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:34 pm
sossoufr33 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:05 am
In the Zach Sang interview she complained about people expecting her to write only about love just because she was a girl, but she also added that were was nothing wrong with writing about it and that she had just done that a lot recently, BUT there's not only that subject.
Agree. I’m going to go with the Grace I’ve known so far and say her instincts will steer her away from a re-hash of the same thematic and musical vibe of LV1. Her intro is stuffed pretty full of sarcasm and an almost class-based disdain (she did get a good look at the Rockefeller clique last month).
:) Yeah, I felt that in Gucci Shoes she was saying something along the lines of "You don't expect me to show up at galas and awards ceremonies in my old age wearing sneakers, now do you?"

Bjork (who I am listening to now) did a lot of exploring with textures and sounds, and I hope Grace will continue to do that too. But by 1995, Bjork was becoming more and more inaccessible. I think Bjork was more culturally isolated than Grace though, and because Grace is an American girl (Bjork never went anywhere near jazz, I don't think), I doubt she will follow Bjork's path into esoteric musings. Stay accessible and melodic Grace. Your take on relationships is complex and potentially explosive, so I know you won't be approaching the subject like the pop tarts do. We may only be seeing the beginning of her songs about relationships, and as she wades deeper into them, her understanding of how to express those feelings through music will evolve. It should be exciting (military drums already? Is love a battlefield? Oh my...)
Last edited by aldri49501 on Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:29 am, edited 7 times in total.

rockpopscissors
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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by rockpopscissors » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:04 am

EricH wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:20 am
The music is beautiful. The lyrics are beautiful. Grace's voice is beautiful. I could listen to this EP on repeat for hours.... but
Except for the intro they are all relationship songs. JTB had more varied subject matter and on some of those songs, more depth. Grace herself complained at one point that so many of the songs on the radio were relationship songs.
I hope this is an aberration. I agree with Grace's complaint. We have an overabundance of relationship songs already. We don't need more, no matter how good and unique they are. Better to have good, unique songs about other aspects of life. Why waste genius on well trampled ground?
When you are a teenage songwriter going through a major milestone in growing up (and a first serious relationship would definitely qualify), you need to expect that a good portion of an album will be devoted to that event. The very title "Letters" indicates a personal look and you need to expect this. For myself, the idea of relationship songs might be a road often traveled, but this is Grace's first time down that road and we need to let her express herself as she sees fit.

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by rockpopscissors » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:21 am

JohnMay2 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:14 pm
I became a little worried for the character in these songs because the carefree, time wasting, fun loving person from WMT became a jealous, passive aggressive, needy, overly attached girlfriend in subsequent songs. She is obviously pissed at him for going into the city with his friends (with no explanation given for why she didn't go with him), but checks her phone constantly to see if he has called. And the boy in the songs became more and more distant, detached, and manipulative. But even those qualities are seen through the eyes of uncertainty and almost paranoia about his true intentions, and her own flaws. It feels scary at times to read (or hear) the lyrics to these songs, because we really aren't sure about the narrator's ability to honestly interpret them correctly. Indeed, her almost willingness to accept or use her flaws as the reason behind her unhappiness is disturbing, to say the least. And it's made more so because as of yet there is no resolution. We are left hanging with an unhappy, self flagellating, uncertain situation, with no anchor.
There is another way to look at this matter. You are assuming (as I formerly did) that the new songs are covering a later time that WMT but that really doesn't make much sense. WMT is presumably written after she already knew the boy "with an accent" was leaving the NY area (won't you miss Manhattan?). If "The City" is based on real events at least in part, we have a good idea when that boy was at the Whitney (it's in his Instagram) and it was early in their relationship.

I am suggesting a new way to look at the matter... that, like many first relationships, Grace expected "her man" to be a knight in shining armor later to find out he wasn't and maybe wasn't even that keen on being in a committed relationship. She was jealous and a little paranoid as you said and she tried to tie him down to no avail. WMT represents a later point in the relationship when she decided just to have fun while it lasted and, as she said, "I'll just pretend you're mine." In this context the coda added to "Poser" about love being overrated makes sense as it represents a less idealistic and more world-weary and perhaps jaded look at love.
Last edited by rockpopscissors on Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

DenisPeloquin
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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by DenisPeloquin » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:03 am

rockpopscissors wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:21 am
You are assuming (as I formerly did) that the new songs are covering a later time that WMT but that really doesn't make much sense. WMT is presumably written after she already knew the boy "with an accent" was leaving the NY are (won't you miss Manhattan?). If "The City" is based on real events at least in part, we have a good idea when that boy was at the Whitney (it's in his Instagram) and it was early in their relationship.

I am suggesting a new way to look at the matter... that, like many first relationships, Grace expected "her man" to be a knight in shining armor later to find out he wasn't and maybe wasn't even that keen on being in a committed relationship. She was jealous and a little paranoid as you said and she tried to tie him down to no avail. WMT represents a later point in the relationship when she decided just to have fun while it lasted and, as she said, "I'll just pretend you're mine." In this context the coda added to "Poser" about love being overrated makes sense as it represents a less idealistic and more world-weary and perhaps jaded look at love.
The lyrics:

You say "I love you" with an accent
Then I pretend like nothin' happened

It just might be possible that "with an accent" is metaphoric and not literal. The lines would read to me like someone speaking the words 'I love you' passionately, emotionally ladened, or emphatically as opposed to a normal conversational voice. Wouldn't this make more sense in context of the second lyric than a literal interpretation of the first lyric as someone with an accent saying 'I love you'?

The story in the song feels more of one coming out of a longterm friendship cratering into a romance than one rooted in a star-crossed relationship that had a lifespan of a couple months.

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by rockpopscissors » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:26 am

DenisPeloquin wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:03 am
rockpopscissors wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:21 am
You are assuming (as I formerly did) that the new songs are covering a later time that WMT but that really doesn't make much sense. WMT is presumably written after she already knew the boy "with an accent" was leaving the NY are (won't you miss Manhattan?). If "The City" is based on real events at least in part, we have a good idea when that boy was at the Whitney (it's in his Instagram) and it was early in their relationship.

I am suggesting a new way to look at the matter... that, like many first relationships, Grace expected "her man" to be a knight in shining armor later to find out he wasn't and maybe wasn't even that keen on being in a committed relationship. She was jealous and a little paranoid as you said and she tried to tie him down to no avail. WMT represents a later point in the relationship when she decided just to have fun while it lasted and, as she said, "I'll just pretend you're mine." In this context the coda added to "Poser" about love being overrated makes sense as it represents a less idealistic and more world-weary and perhaps jaded look at love.
The lyrics:

You say "I love you" with an accent
Then I pretend like nothin' happened

It just might be possible that "with an accent" is metaphoric and not literal. The lines would read to me like someone speaking the words 'I love you' passionately, emotionally ladened, or emphatically as opposed to a normal conversational voice. Wouldn't this make more sense in context of the second lyric than a literal interpretation of the first lyric as someone with an accent saying 'I love you'?

The story in the song feels more of one coming out of a longterm friendship cratering into a romance than one rooted in a star-crossed relationship that had a lifespan of a couple months.
Considering the boy in question was not a native English speaker, avoiding the literal interpretation fails both the "common sense" test and Ockham's Razor. There would need to be some compelling reason to think otherwise. What the song " feels like" to you or me apart from the hard evidence is little more than an exercise in confirmation bias.

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by JohnMay2 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:34 pm

rockpopscissors wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:21 am
JohnMay2 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:14 pm
I became a little worried for the character in these songs because the carefree, time wasting, fun loving person from WMT became a jealous, passive aggressive, needy, overly attached girlfriend in subsequent songs. She is obviously pissed at him for going into the city with his friends (with no explanation given for why she didn't go with him), but checks her phone constantly to see if he has called. And the boy in the songs became more and more distant, detached, and manipulative. But even those qualities are seen through the eyes of uncertainty and almost paranoia about his true intentions, and her own flaws. It feels scary at times to read (or hear) the lyrics to these songs, because we really aren't sure about the narrator's ability to honestly interpret them correctly. Indeed, her almost willingness to accept or use her flaws as the reason behind her unhappiness is disturbing, to say the least. And it's made more so because as of yet there is no resolution. We are left hanging with an unhappy, self flagellating, uncertain situation, with no anchor.
There is another way to look at this matter. You are assuming (as I formerly did) that the new songs are covering a later time that WMT but that really doesn't make much sense. WMT is presumably written after she already knew the boy "with an accent" was leaving the NY area (won't you miss Manhattan?). If "The City" is based on real events at least in part, we have a good idea when that boy was at the Whitney (it's in his Instagram) and it was early in their relationship.

I am suggesting a new way to look at the matter... that, like many first relationships, Grace expected "her man" to be a knight in shining armor later to find out he wasn't and maybe wasn't even that keen on being in a committed relationship. She was jealous and a little paranoid as you said and she tried to tie him down to no avail. WMT represents a later point in the relationship when she decided just to have fun while it lasted and, as she said, "I'll just pretend you're mine." In this context the coda added to "Poser" about love being overrated makes sense as it represents a less idealistic and more world-weary and perhaps jaded look at love.
Many of you may remember that when WMT was released I came on here and waxed ridiculously (but unashamedly) about how it was a beautiful song and a wonderful way for the characters in the song to accept the end of a relationship, however doomed it might have been from the start. It was a way for the characters to be able to look back, many years from now, on this time with a smile rather than bitterness.

Then the other songs came out.

USB. IDLY. The City. Poser. Each of are amazing in their own way, but kind of put a dampener on the (perceived) positivity of WMT. My head canon is such that WMT does indeed come last in this series of songs. But on the EP, The City is last, leaving us with the feelings that I described in my OP. Now, given that this EP is labeled part 1, I am thinking that perhaps we are in for another series of songs exploring a resolution to these feelings and a growth arc. But for now, we can only assume that the female character had feelings for this boy, knew that he was eventually going to leave, and decided, perhaps naively, that wasting her time with him was going to be harmless, emotionally speaking. It might have started out that way, but given these series of songs, it sure as hell didn't end that way. For now, at least.

If this was book or a movie, this would be the epitome of part 1. Grace might even be looking at it that way as well. I'm already standing in line for part 2.

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by VanderVault » Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:43 pm

JohnMay2 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:34 pm
rockpopscissors wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:21 am
JohnMay2 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:14 pm
I became a little worried for the character in these songs because the carefree, time wasting, fun loving person from WMT became a jealous, passive aggressive, needy, overly attached girlfriend in subsequent songs. She is obviously pissed at him for going into the city with his friends (with no explanation given for why she didn't go with him), but checks her phone constantly to see if he has called. And the boy in the songs became more and more distant, detached, and manipulative. But even those qualities are seen through the eyes of uncertainty and almost paranoia about his true intentions, and her own flaws. It feels scary at times to read (or hear) the lyrics to these songs, because we really aren't sure about the narrator's ability to honestly interpret them correctly. Indeed, her almost willingness to accept or use her flaws as the reason behind her unhappiness is disturbing, to say the least. And it's made more so because as of yet there is no resolution. We are left hanging with an unhappy, self flagellating, uncertain situation, with no anchor.
There is another way to look at this matter. You are assuming (as I formerly did) that the new songs are covering a later time that WMT but that really doesn't make much sense. WMT is presumably written after she already knew the boy "with an accent" was leaving the NY area (won't you miss Manhattan?). If "The City" is based on real events at least in part, we have a good idea when that boy was at the Whitney (it's in his Instagram) and it was early in their relationship.

I am suggesting a new way to look at the matter... that, like many first relationships, Grace expected "her man" to be a knight in shining armor later to find out he wasn't and maybe wasn't even that keen on being in a committed relationship. She was jealous and a little paranoid as you said and she tried to tie him down to no avail. WMT represents a later point in the relationship when she decided just to have fun while it lasted and, as she said, "I'll just pretend you're mine." In this context the coda added to "Poser" about love being overrated makes sense as it represents a less idealistic and more world-weary and perhaps jaded look at love.
Many of you may remember that when WMT was released I came on here and waxed ridiculously (but unashamedly) about how it was a beautiful song and a wonderful way for the characters in the song to accept the end of a relationship, however doomed it might have been from the start. It was a way for the characters to be able to look back, many years from now, on this time with a smile rather than bitterness.

Then the other songs came out.

USB. IDLY. The City. Poser. Each of are amazing in their own way, but kind of put a dampener on the (perceived) positivity of WMT. My head canon is such that WMT does indeed come last in this series of songs. But on the EP, The City is last, leaving us with the feelings that I described in my OP. Now, given that this EP is labeled part 1, I am thinking that perhaps we are in for another series of songs exploring a resolution to these feelings and a growth arc. But for now, we can only assume that the female character had feelings for this boy, knew that he was eventually going to leave, and decided, perhaps naively, that wasting her time with him was going to be harmless, emotionally speaking. It might have started out that way, but given these series of songs, it sure as hell didn't end that way. For now, at least.

If this was book or a movie, this would be the epitome of part 1. Grace might even be looking at it that way as well. I'm already standing in line for part 2.
Yes, exactly. That's why I wanted (fanboying pathetically here, I know) Grace to tie these songs together into a visual narrative (movie or play)…

https://vandervault.org/2019/09/19/grac ... quivalent/

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by JohnMay2 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:19 pm

VanderVault wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:43 pm
JohnMay2 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:34 pm
rockpopscissors wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:21 am


There is another way to look at this matter. You are assuming (as I formerly did) that the new songs are covering a later time that WMT but that really doesn't make much sense. WMT is presumably written after she already knew the boy "with an accent" was leaving the NY area (won't you miss Manhattan?). If "The City" is based on real events at least in part, we have a good idea when that boy was at the Whitney (it's in his Instagram) and it was early in their relationship.

I am suggesting a new way to look at the matter... that, like many first relationships, Grace expected "her man" to be a knight in shining armor later to find out he wasn't and maybe wasn't even that keen on being in a committed relationship. She was jealous and a little paranoid as you said and she tried to tie him down to no avail. WMT represents a later point in the relationship when she decided just to have fun while it lasted and, as she said, "I'll just pretend you're mine." In this context the coda added to "Poser" about love being overrated makes sense as it represents a less idealistic and more world-weary and perhaps jaded look at love.
Many of you may remember that when WMT was released I came on here and waxed ridiculously (but unashamedly) about how it was a beautiful song and a wonderful way for the characters in the song to accept the end of a relationship, however doomed it might have been from the start. It was a way for the characters to be able to look back, many years from now, on this time with a smile rather than bitterness.

Then the other songs came out.

USB. IDLY. The City. Poser. Each of are amazing in their own way, but kind of put a dampener on the (perceived) positivity of WMT. My head canon is such that WMT does indeed come last in this series of songs. But on the EP, The City is last, leaving us with the feelings that I described in my OP. Now, given that this EP is labeled part 1, I am thinking that perhaps we are in for another series of songs exploring a resolution to these feelings and a growth arc. But for now, we can only assume that the female character had feelings for this boy, knew that he was eventually going to leave, and decided, perhaps naively, that wasting her time with him was going to be harmless, emotionally speaking. It might have started out that way, but given these series of songs, it sure as hell didn't end that way. For now, at least.

If this was book or a movie, this would be the epitome of part 1. Grace might even be looking at it that way as well. I'm already standing in line for part 2.
Yes, exactly. That's why I wanted (fanboying pathetically here, I know) Grace to tie these songs together into a visual narrative (movie or play)…

https://vandervault.org/2019/09/19/grac ... quivalent/
I am pretty sure that at this point we are fanboying professionally, thank you very much

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by VanderVault » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:31 pm

JohnMay2 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:19 pm
I am pretty sure that at this point we are fanboying professionally, thank you very much
:lol:

DenisPeloquin
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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by DenisPeloquin » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:47 pm

rockpopscissors wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:26 am
DenisPeloquin wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:03 am
rockpopscissors wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:21 am
You are assuming (as I formerly did) that the new songs are covering a later time that WMT but that really doesn't make much sense. WMT is presumably written after she already knew the boy "with an accent" was leaving the NY are (won't you miss Manhattan?). If "The City" is based on real events at least in part, we have a good idea when that boy was at the Whitney (it's in his Instagram) and it was early in their relationship.

I am suggesting a new way to look at the matter... that, like many first relationships, Grace expected "her man" to be a knight in shining armor later to find out he wasn't and maybe wasn't even that keen on being in a committed relationship. She was jealous and a little paranoid as you said and she tried to tie him down to no avail. WMT represents a later point in the relationship when she decided just to have fun while it lasted and, as she said, "I'll just pretend you're mine." In this context the coda added to "Poser" about love being overrated makes sense as it represents a less idealistic and more world-weary and perhaps jaded look at love.
The lyrics:

You say "I love you" with an accent
Then I pretend like nothin' happened

It just might be possible that "with an accent" is metaphoric and not literal. The lines would read to me like someone speaking the words 'I love you' passionately, emotionally ladened, or emphatically as opposed to a normal conversational voice. Wouldn't this make more sense in context of the second lyric than a literal interpretation of the first lyric as someone with an accent saying 'I love you'?

The story in the song feels more of one coming out of a longterm friendship cratering into a romance than one rooted in a star-crossed relationship that had a lifespan of a couple months.
Considering the boy in question was not a native English speaker, avoiding the literal interpretation fails both the "common sense" test and Ockham's Razor. There would need to be some compelling reason to think otherwise. What the song " feels like" to you or me apart from the hard evidence is little more than an exercise in confirmation bias.
True. But, have you heard the "accent" of the boy in question? Not sure if an upper-middle class brazillian youth would have that discernable of an accent compared with the fusion of accents in Rockland/NY region. Soph's teenage Brazillian collaborator (vaporub boy) sounds like he is from Michagan. Besides if the genesis of WMT was in the Nov 2018 - Mar 2019 time period, a boy with an accent wouldn't have been in the picture. Makes more sense to me that "with an accent" has a figurative/metaphoric meaning than a literal one.

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by JohnMay2 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:38 pm

DenisPeloquin wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:47 pm
rockpopscissors wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:26 am
DenisPeloquin wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:03 am


The lyrics:

You say "I love you" with an accent
Then I pretend like nothin' happened

It just might be possible that "with an accent" is metaphoric and not literal. The lines would read to me like someone speaking the words 'I love you' passionately, emotionally ladened, or emphatically as opposed to a normal conversational voice. Wouldn't this make more sense in context of the second lyric than a literal interpretation of the first lyric as someone with an accent saying 'I love you'?

The story in the song feels more of one coming out of a longterm friendship cratering into a romance than one rooted in a star-crossed relationship that had a lifespan of a couple months.
Considering the boy in question was not a native English speaker, avoiding the literal interpretation fails both the "common sense" test and Ockham's Razor. There would need to be some compelling reason to think otherwise. What the song " feels like" to you or me apart from the hard evidence is little more than an exercise in confirmation bias.
True. But, have you heard the "accent" of the boy in question? Not sure if an upper-middle class brazillian youth would have that discernable of an accent compared with the fusion of accents in Rockland/NY region. Soph's teenage Brazillian collaborator (vaporub boy) sounds like he is from Michagan. Besides if the genesis of WMT was in the Nov 2018 - Mar 2019 time period, a boy with an accent wouldn't have been in the picture. Makes more sense to me that "with an accent" has a figurative/metaphoric meaning than a literal one.
I really don't think so. He was in picture as late as July.

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by DenisPeloquin » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:13 pm

JohnMay2 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:38 pm
DenisPeloquin wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:47 pm
rockpopscissors wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:26 am


Considering the boy in question was not a native English speaker, avoiding the literal interpretation fails both the "common sense" test and Ockham's Razor. There would need to be some compelling reason to think otherwise. What the song " feels like" to you or me apart from the hard evidence is little more than an exercise in confirmation bias.
True. But, have you heard the "accent" of the boy in question? Not sure if an upper-middle class brazillian youth would have that discernable of an accent compared with the fusion of accents in Rockland/NY region. Soph's teenage Brazillian collaborator (vaporub boy) sounds like he is from Michagan. Besides if the genesis of WMT was in the Nov 2018 - Mar 2019 time period, a boy with an accent wouldn't have been in the picture. Makes more sense to me that "with an accent" has a figurative/metaphoric meaning than a literal one.
I really don't think so. He was in picture as late as July.
But, if he didn't enter the picture until the spring 2019 and WMT was among the songs she was working on post-Stargirl then how does his accent apply to the lyric's meaning.

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by VanderVault » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:24 pm

This train seems to be departing Stanville for Stalkerton...getting a little too close to an invasion of privacy.

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by JohnMay2 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:40 pm

VanderVault wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:24 pm
This train seems to be departing Stanville for Stalkerton...getting a little too close to an invasion of privacy.
Indeed. Sorry about that.

rockpopscissors
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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by rockpopscissors » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:11 am

DenisPeloquin wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:47 pm
rockpopscissors wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:26 am
DenisPeloquin wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:03 am


The lyrics:

You say "I love you" with an accent
Then I pretend like nothin' happened

It just might be possible that "with an accent" is metaphoric and not literal. The lines would read to me like someone speaking the words 'I love you' passionately, emotionally ladened, or emphatically as opposed to a normal conversational voice. Wouldn't this make more sense in context of the second lyric than a literal interpretation of the first lyric as someone with an accent saying 'I love you'?

The story in the song feels more of one coming out of a longterm friendship cratering into a romance than one rooted in a star-crossed relationship that had a lifespan of a couple months.
Considering the boy in question was not a native English speaker, avoiding the literal interpretation fails both the "common sense" test and Ockham's Razor. There would need to be some compelling reason to think otherwise. What the song " feels like" to you or me apart from the hard evidence is little more than an exercise in confirmation bias.
True. But, have you heard the "accent" of the boy in question? Not sure if an upper-middle class brazillian youth would have that discernable of an accent compared with the fusion of accents in Rockland/NY region. Soph's teenage Brazillian collaborator (vaporub boy) sounds like he is from Michagan. Besides if the genesis of WMT was in the Nov 2018 - Mar 2019 time period, a boy with an accent wouldn't have been in the picture. Makes more sense to me that "with an accent" has a figurative/metaphoric meaning than a literal one.
In my college days, I had a girlfriend who was an upper middle class girl fron Quebec and she had an accent. It relates to the differences in sounds and rhythym in different linguistic settings. Few people can learn a second language without carrying over some elememts of the first.

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by EricH » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:00 am

rockpopscissors wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:11 am
In my college days, I had a girlfriend who was an upper middle class girl fron Quebec and she had an accent. It relates to the differences in sounds and rhythym in different linguistic settings. Few people can learn a second language without carrying over some elememts of the first.
For that matter, there are half a dozen accents within the U.S. And while everyone is assuming that this entire EP is related to a real life experience, I contend that it is more likely a mixture of multiple sources, some real, most not.
While the inspiration for the music of Taylor Swift appears to be largely autobiographical with a thin coating of fantasy, I believe that the inspiration for the music of Grace is very much the opposite. I believe that Grace lives much more in her head, whereas TS lives much more out in the world. That Grace is not that far removed from the introverted little girl who auditioned on AGT.
These beliefs have no basis on any personal knowledge of Grace's life, only on the public pronouncements made by Grace in interviews and on social media. Others may have opposite views from those very same sources.

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by BradHaney » Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:23 am

Maybe she interpreted it as jivey or fake (if it was even said at all):
telly-savalas-who-loves-ya-baby.jpg
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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by anthonminsky » Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:13 am

but...

I am willing to give it more praise than even that.

I love the EP, but I respect it as well.

Grace VanderWaal, to me, did an AGT audition night blow away with this new album. As 'I Don't Know My Name' was so unbelievably deep and catchy and great for a 12 year old little girl, I think 'Letters' Volume one- is for a 15 year old little girl. This set of music is remarkable to me. Experimentally all over the place, and the songs are all different and beautiful and wonderful. Written and sung and produced perfect.

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Re: I love the EP....but...

Post by TomKauffman » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:27 am

anthonminsky wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:13 am
but...

I am willing to give it more praise than even that.

I love the EP, but I respect it as well.

Grace VanderWaal, to me, did an AGT audition night blow away with this new album. As 'I Don't Know My Name' was so unbelievably deep and catchy and great for a 12 year old little girl, I think 'Letters' Volume one- is for a 15 year old little girl. This set of music is remarkable to me. Experimentally all over the place, and the songs are all different and beautiful and wonderful. Written and sung and produced perfect.
I agree with you, with one small but noticeable exception. At 5 foot 7 (170 cm) Grace no longer qualifies as "little". I think she's earned a promotion to "young lady" :) . Especially given the direction her music is going, as evidenced by this EP. And it doesn't hurt at all that she has, over the last 3 years, gone from "cute" to "adorable", shot right through "good looking" and is now pegging the meter at "outright beautiful". The outfit that signed her as a model at age 13 really knew what they were doing! :D Just check the attachments in this thread . . . https://www.vandervault.org/forum/viewt ... f=21&t=811

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